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Original: 6/14/2009 8:50 PM
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Sunday, June 14, 2009

Why I oppose NOMA

 There is a fairly large contingent of scientists—good, respectable scientists like Stephen Jay Gould and Niles Eldredge—who advocate a position known as "Non-Overlapping Magisteria," usually abbreviated (somewhat strangely) as NOMA. Essentially, this position claims that science and religion are complementary systems, one describing one "magisterium" of the natural world, the other describing another "magisterium" of the supernatural world—or maybe the ethical world, since NOMA is usually espoused by innuendo more than anything else, and I've never heard anyone really rigorously define what the "magisteria" are or what theories rightfully correspond to what magisteria.

Typically, these scientists object to the statements of other scientists—also good, respectable scientists like Richard Dawkins and Will Provine—that science is fundamentally opposed to religion, that science is actually true and not just "one way of looking at things," that some opinions are better than others, that a scientific mindset will never be compatible with a faith-based approach to the world.


I hold this latter position—indeed, I have trouble relating to scientists who do not. I try to; I recognize that many respectable scientists support NOMA, scientists who continually make scientific achievements of a degree I can barely aspire to.

Of course, as I noted, many other respectable scientists agree with my position as well—so I'm left with little choice but to say that many respectable scientists are wrong.

In fact, I increasingly find strange scientific and philosophical errors made by scientists who support NOMA—but I can't be sure if I am merely looking for these sorts of errors due to my own biases against NOMA itself. (Maybe Dawkins has made similar errors and I've ignored them?)

For instance, Niles Eldredge writes in The Triumph of Evolution (note 2 to chapter 6): "[…] I agree with one of the letter writers, who noted the one great gap—inherently and in principle 'bridgeable,' but not in actuality so between humans and any other form of animal life known: the consciousness that we humans have. As the writer of the letter pointed out, human behavior is purposive in the sense that it is consciously pursued for survival. […] In other words, I do not think that even the wisest chimp knowns, and can therefore contemplate, the fact that it will die someday."

This seems to imply that Eldredge agrees with Descartes that all animals other than humans are unthinking automatons, without sensation, experience, or emotion. He agrees that human beings evolved from other animals—indeed, he argues forcefully for that conclusion—but doesn't seem to realize that this strongly suggests consciousness is a quantitative, not qualitative, trait—that cats and rats and bats all have a conscious experience comparable to our own, that sharks, octopuses and lizards probably have a simpler consciousness, but clearly have some conscious experience, and that more ancient organisms like worms and beetles may well have some rudimentary consciousness as well.

When challenged with the fact that chimpanzee behaviors show cultural patterns of transmission, Eldredge bites the bullet in the most absurd way imaginable: "[…] perhaps the patterns of geographic variation in simple tool use and other aspects of chimp 'culture' do connect on a sliding scale with human material cultural traditions—with the further implication that consciousness itself is not a prerequisite for the development of culture or perhaps even cultural traditions, as exemplified in the toolmaking traditions of the Paleolithic." I might as well say that consciousness is not necessary to write books about evolution, and Niles Eldridge may well be an unthinking automaton! Though no one has ever convincingly solved the problem of other minds once and for all (has anyone ever convincingly solved anything once and for all?), the most plausible solution in both theory and practice is to infer, as Alan Turing did, that structure and behavior indistinguishable from consciousness implies consciousness. This means that the following inferences are very probably correct: When a dog lays lethargically over the fallen body of his mate, he is really grieving; when a cat stares at a ledge for a few seconds before jumping up to it, she is really reasoning; when a chimpanzee makes a tool in front of other chimpanzees who then proceed to make similar tools, he is really teaching. Consciousness is ubiquitous in the animal domain—hardly unique to parochial Homo sapiens. Indeed, I might even go so far as to say that if you show me an evolutionist who is not a vegetarian, I will show you a hypocrite.

But even though Eldridge is clearly wrong about consciousness, this does not imply that he is wrong about NOMA; indeed, he is clearly right about many other things, so his credibility is scarcely tarnished by one obvious mistake.


So I should take a step back, try to consider NOMA on its own merits, and attempt to discern what consequences it would have if correct.

Catchy phrases like "Science tells you how the heavens go, religion tells you how to go to heaven" really don't help; after all, clearly the word "heaven" doesn't mean the same thing in the first clause as it does in the second (if you meant "outer space," science tells you how to go there too!), so this statement is no more sound than "Nothing is better than total eternal happiness, a saltine cracker is better than nothing, therefore a saltine cracker is better than eternal happiness."


So let's take NOMA to be the proposition that science tells us only about nature, not ethics, and religion tells us only about ethics, not nature—and furthermore that nature and ethics are sufficiently separate that views on one are orthogonal to views on the other.

This proposition has three parts, all of which are clearly false.

1. Science does tell us about ethics: It informs us of the consequences of our actions, it enhances our ability to effect changes in the universe—including morally-significant changes. Science can tell us what organisms are sentient and what happens when we die. Furthermore, there are certain ethical values which are essential to science: Honesty, openness, fairness, a commitment to resolving dispute by reason and evidence instead of violence. These may not be enough to define a complete ethical system by themselves (actually, they get us pretty close!), but certainly they are ethically significant.

2. Religion does tell us about nature: Most religions claim that human beings—and only human beings—have something called a "soul" which provides consciousness, something separate from the brain. Most religions claim that when people die, they don't really die, but instead are transferred in some sense to a different place—either better or worse. Nearly all religions claim that certain special human beings can hear messages from invisible beings in the sky. Nearly all religions claim that the laws of physics are optional, the whims of invisible entities. These are very strong, significant claims about nature—these are literal factual claims, and they are completely and utterly false.

3. Nature and ethics are not orthogonal. Many of our deepest ethical truths depend upon truths about nature, truths that science can demonstrate. If it were in fact true that people who die really go to some wonderful happy place, then murder would not be immoral—I dare say it would be good, maybe even obligatory. It it were in fact true that the laws of physics were optional, science would be pointless, technology would be unreliable, and all solutions to all the world's problems should be effected through prayer and sacrifice to the gods. If religion's claims about nature were true, we would not be appalled by the woman who killed her son claiming it was God's command—on the contrary we would count her a great hero, someone brave enough to obey God at all costs. Further, the enterprise of science—the way we discover nature—depends upon certain ethical principles of honesty and fairness without which it would be impossible.

Indeed, the pro-NOMA camp is surely wrong about something else as well: They generally seem to think that, regardless of its false claims about nature, religion is a good source of at least ethical and political values (Eldredge., p.152): "I would no sooner place our future strictly in the hands of scientists than I would see it placed in the hands of movie stars—or, for that matter, lawyers and politicians. I think the problems facing humanity at the Millennium are so great that we need the input of all segments of society to deal with them, and here I refer specifically to perhaps the greatest sector of society to which one can point: the global community of organized religion."

Most importantly, it is clear to me that organized religion is not one community, but many communities, communities constantly vying for power, usually through massive, genocidal violence. The history of humanity is largely the history of war, and the history of war is largely the history of religion. The Egyptians fought the Jews, the Romans fought the Egyptians, the Christians fought the Romans, the Trinitarians fought the Areans, the Christians fought the Muslims, the Protestants fought the Catholics, the Nazis fought the Jews, the Christians fought the Communists, now the Muslims fight the Jews and the Hindus and the Christians. (And the Christians and the Muslims fight the secularists, though so far with only a minimum of actual violence.)

Religion, unlike science, refuses to resolve debate through reason or evidence, and so it must resolve it through violence. Religion's answer to any question has always been to assert an answer without evidence, then kill all those who doubt or disagree. At present, this is easy to forget, since many nominally "religious" people operate primarily under principles of secular science. (The oxymoronical Vatican astronomer is my favorite example: It is his holy duty to learn about the heavens, but he realizes that holy books won't actually help, so he does what has been proven to work: He actually looks. He uses not religion, but science. And in doing so he unwittingly undermines everything that the Vatican stands for.) But there was a time when religion ruled the world: People were burned at the stake for "heresy" and "witchcraft," invented "crimes" so deeply religious that the modern, secular mind can scarcely even understand how one would ever consider them criminal.


Secondly: Movie stars? Really, does Eldridge think so little of the scientific community that he considers us—himself!—no wiser about the course of humanity than a few thousand spoiled rich people who just happen to be lucky and pretty? Does he really think that science is no better an anchor for human decisions than petty contract negotations or tabloid gossip? It might be right to say that scientists are no better at making human decisions than lawyers and politicians—but actually I don't think I agree with this either.

For increasingly I see the world in terms of three groups: The leaders, scientists and philosophers—the moderate-sized fraction of human beings whose intellect and rationality supports the world against collapse; the destroyers, terrorists and dictators—the tiny fraction of human beings whose selfishness and dishonesty seeks to destroy civilization from within; and the laborers, all the rest—the vast majority of people who simply live their lives neutral to this ongoing conflict, doing their best to survive, but quietly desperate for meaning. Really, it's not quite so stark as this, since most people do live largely productive lives, as engineers, teachers, construction workers, secretaries, soldiers, firefighters, police officers—not the leaders who plan and shape the future, but the workers who labor to make it possible.

Some lawyers and politicians are in the third class of laborers—they prosecute minor crimes or vote on infrastructure legislation. Others are in the first class of leaders—they bring down corrupt corporations or lead humanitarian projects. But still others are in the second class of destroyers—they defend the corrupt corporations for massive paychecks or start wars for personal profit. I know of many scientists who are laborers (at present I am mostly one); I know of a few who are leaders (Richard Dawkins, Stephen Hawking, Bill Gates); but I know of no scientists who are destroyers, and that makes us better than lawyers and politicians. (Indeed, the "mad scientist" archetype is something of an oxymoron: Insofar as one is a scientist, one is rational, and hence not mad.)


In all, I think that NOMA is dangerously wrong; it gives power to falsehood and faith against reason and science. People like Gould and Elredge wouldn't have us actually ask people to believe in science; for them, it's at best true only in a small domain; at worst it is nothing more than an intellectual game. They would teach children "this is how science works"—these are the methods science involves and the facts it has found—but apparently not "this is why science works"—because it's actually based on determining how things really are. On the one hand, Eldredge writes that it is an objective fact that there were trilobites living in seas some 480 million years ago (p.150); on the very next page he writes that we should be careful not to challenge or disrespect the beliefs of students who think the world was made in six days (p.151).

They hide behind something called "methodological naturalism," which apparently says that we should act as if there are no supernatural entities, even if there are—but how ridiculous that is! If there are supernatural beings out there controlling our fate, dammit, I want to know about it! Clearly, we should act based upon what we think actually exists—a position I call methodological realism. The most probable reason why science works so well on naturalistic assumptions is that the world really is naturalistic. This is the same sort of hypothetical-deductive reasoning that we always use in science—so why stop now, on the most important issues? If there were gods and demons, there should be evidence of that; since there isn't any evidence of them, it's most rational to infer that they don't exist!

 Posted 6/14/2009 8:50 PM - 65 Views - 8 eProps - 21 comments

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(1) You should try and make your blogs shorter (people tend to read online material shorter than 1000 words yours is 2200) or,

(2) add some kind of section division, which you should try and do once you're writing more than, say, 1500 or 2000 word arguments. My blogs have tended to be 1000-2000 words, and I think it has made it more approachable when I do this (my long post turned a lot of people off, and even when reading a book, a page, chapter or section division act as "break points" when reading--something a long online diatribe can utterly lack).

(3) You seem to present a false dichotomy that to not practice, essentially, scientism as you advocate is to promote NOMA. I scornfully reject scientism and can (and will) show why such sentiments are problematic from a philosophical standpoint. I touch on it briefly when speaking about theory-change when discussing realism. I will address these issues to much greater detail this summer (link). However, while I find the notion of scientism contestable, and think religion and science can adequately operate together, shall we say, philosophically (i.e., there is no cognitive dissonance for being a religious scientist), that does not imply I support this queer notion of NOMA. They seem to unjustifiably impose limitations, boundaries or demarcations that need not be made whatsoever to enjoy a harmony between science and religion.

(4) Your statement about science and morality begs a whole host of questions:
(a) You assume consequences play a role, much less a significant one, in ethics.
(b) You leave "morally-significant changes" vague and not addressed.
(c) You assume sentience plays a role, much less a significant one, in ethics.
(d) You leave empty the role of death in ethics.
(e) You do not connect what the values involved in science have to do with moral values as addressed by science. There is no logical inconsistency that the methodology may have implicit values that have absolutely nothing to do with the moral values revealed or promoted by the ethical analysis. We can see the two as separate issues, and you seem to be reaching for, what I might say is, "truth by association" that since science values these certain (supposed) moral values, that science must then advocate or provide information about those (supposed) moral values. That is contentious.

So being "certainly ... ethically significant" has not been presented at all, at least not without begging the entire ethical question, i.e., if ethics were a theory T such that (a) through (e) are satisfied, then you would be right that science does say something about ethics through explaining T. However, ethics having anything to do with T is exactly the issue, if T has models that satisfy (a) through (e).

(5) I agree that religion has no inherent basis to morality, but as I said, this whole thing appears as a false dichotomy, and NOMA is completely unjustified. On the other hand, science has no inherent basis to reality, but I have presented such arguments numerous places. The basic idea is simple, any physical theory S posits entities p. If we take science to significantly paint reality, then S tells us about real entities p that have a physical ontology. However, we have seen that theories undergo significant theory change. If we posit that S tells us about ontological entities p, then if we change from S to T and obtain entities q, opposed to p, then we have serious problems. At any course in time we cannot justifiably say (especially with the science) that what theories and entities those theories posit are, in fact, real because our current theories may very well (and probably will) undergo significant theory change 100 years from now. I am not going to qualify the details of this argument here (I will do so this summer), but the literature on this is vast. It is one of the striking reasons and arguments made for structural realism, which does not require us to accept the ontology of entities described by any physical theory. For a "classical" (the topic is rather new in philosophy) view that underscores arguments others will address in more current articles, I suggest reading John Worrall. 1989. Structural Realism: The Best of Both Worlds? Dialectica 43: 99-124. Other articles are presented under the SEP link provided above. Such arguments lay out a considerable problem for scientism in general, and scientific realism in particular.
Posted 6/14/2009 10:57 PM by bryangoodrich - reply

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@bryangoodrich - 

I really do not understand what you two are talking about (over my head) but it is geekalicious
Posted 6/14/2009 11:01 PM by scrambledmegzntoast@hardestlevel Xanga Premium Member - reply

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@bryangoodrich - 



1) I write the length that the topic requires. Some of my posts are long, others short.

2) Yes, you're right; I should organize my sections better.

3) "Scientism" is not a well-defined notion. If it means using reason and evidence for making all of my decisions in every domain, I am guilty as charged.

4) Any sane person will acknowledge that consequences (at least foreseeable consequences) are significant in ethics. Even a staunch deontologist realizes that consequences help determine which rules to use. Yes, I'm presuming sentience is important, again in line with the consensus of the philosophical community. I wasn't talking about death---at least not much---so I don't see why it's relevant that I barely mentioned it. And if science is right and science involves certain values---then I'd say those values are right too. It's not a rigorous proof, but it is definitely a compelling inductive argument.

5) Your real objection is apparently to the claim that science is actually true; if you really think that's right, I have a few proposals for you: Why not jump off of a building, since gravity is just a theory? Why not fly in an airplane with its engines on fire, since aerodynamics is just a theory? Why not put a gun to your forehead and fire it, since ballistics and neuroanatomy are just theories?

No, there is not significant paradigm shift in science; this is a vicious lie. We have known for centuries the basic structure of the physical universe, and recent changes are nothing more than minor refinements on particular scales. Equations written by Galileo are still valid for the majority of space missions; taxonomies designed by Linnaeus are still consistent with modern genetics.
Posted 6/15/2009 12:31 AM by pnrj Xanga True Member - reply

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@pnrj - 

Scientism is actually a rather easy to define notion (though, anyone can claim to stand on a gradient of it). Scientism clearly posits that the only means to true statements (especially ontologically) is through science, i.e., whatever science says is true, is the truth. It has very little to do with decision theory, nor is it how you identified yourself advocating the ideology in your blog; so, making it about how you make decisions is an irrelevant association.

As for science being right or not, you seem to not realize the point I had made. The institution of science may be imbued with certain values, but the product of that institution in no way necessarily is imbued with those some values. We can very easily find no contradiction in the institution holding some value X and the product of that institution holding ¬X, because the product and the institution are two separate things. In other words, the scientific community or the scientific process is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for the truths science produces to have any characteristic of its the community or the process. Your statement tried to associate the two by a kind of "true by association" (as opposed to a guilt by association). It was a non-sequitur.

In regard to consequences, sentience and death, the point was that you showed no role of the significance. While consequences may be associated with ethical truths, it is by no means an apparent truth that consequences are the deciding factor of ethical truths. It is no different than being aware that correlations do not equate to causation. In this case, association does not imply necessitation. Furthermore, I have studied ethics for years and am well-versed on the academic literature in this area, as I began my philosophical career as an ethicist (I prefer logic now). There is by far no consensus of the role of sentience in terms of ethical truths. What you are confusing is that sentience is typically identified as being a sufficient condition for being a moral agent, because we identify an entity capable of making moral choices requires the capability to identify the moral landscape, which is shaped through ones ability to "feel" in an important sense. We typically take that to be sentience. But that does not imply that ethical truths correspond in any regard to sentience, nor is there any definitive measure for when something is significantly sentience enough to be, shall we say, a moral agent. This is why some people will say "he is a human, he is sentient, and thus obtains personhood which is imbued with moral value." Others will contest this notion when dealing with the ethics of animals because "personhood" is tied to sentience, and yet it is hardly a necessary nor sufficient condition for personhood (or whatever we want to deem an agent obtaining certain moral values by such characteristics). In fact, others can very easily make the argument--as I would--that notions of personhood or "value through sentience" has absolutely no basis (link and link).

But no, there is no compelling inductive argument here, because there is no evidence for the "next step" which is characteristic of an inductive argument, i.e., you need to establish the given and how it infers a strong case for the next iteration or future case of some sort. This isn't even framed as an inductive argument.

And no, you did not comprehend my objection at all. In fact, you beg the entire question by talking about what is "actually true." Truth is a meaningless term to use. Science is science and facts are facts. Truth is a semantical notion. I wont explain the details since I have already discussed Truth in great detail. There is no such thing as actually true. There is only truth as one utilizes it. What you are trying to impose is that "science is ontological" which is precisely the issue. By merely changing the terms of being ontological or being real to "actually true" does absolutely nothing for you. You just butchered the disquotational equivalence schema (see link for details).

And no offense, but I'm going to take the wealth of literature by exceptional figures in the philosophy of science that say otherwise to your statement. There is no "vicious lie" about theory shifts (I'm not talking about paradigms since that is a specific approach to the subject matter, don't put words into my mouth). First off, a paradigm isn't even meaningfully defined, nor can be used in any significant manner. Stick to what I said, which was that theories posit certain entities and theories make significant changes contradicting the very entities previously taken to be ontological. Poincaré recognized this quite some time ago, and Worrall extends his objection (while showing the errors) between the shift to Maxwell's theory from how "Frensel entirely misidentified the nature of light" (Worrall 1989, p 118). We can see significant changes between Newton's theories and Einstein's general relativity. Your pragmatic points are irrelevant since being able to use Newton's equation does not imply the theory is right in the significant (ontological) sense, nor that it explains the structure of the universe in the significant sense. In fact, Newton describes the nature of reality significantly wrong. Mass is constant under Newton's theory. If we take him to be correct about the universe, then we're saying mass is, in fact of the matter of reality, constant. But that is contradicted by Einstein's theory that says otherwise, and this is why Newton's equations fail to apply under the significant conditions, regardless of how well we can use them at other times for other things. I suggest reading the literature before asserting your own truth as if you have all the answers on the subject. You are far from an expert on the philosophy of science.
Posted 6/15/2009 1:17 AM by bryangoodrich - reply

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Just so you're clear on the subject, a paradigm shift (scientific revolution) occurs when an unresolvable anomaly is discovered that the current paradigm cannot manage. Thus, there is a shift in the paradigm to resolve the anomaly. First off, an anomaly, much less a paradigm, has ever satisfactorily been identified. It is an abstract notion Kuhn developed to describe the history of scientific change. He wasn't right, and this has well been argued in the literature. As the SEP criticism section details, "Stephen Toulmin (1970) argues that a more realistic picture shows that revisionary changes in science are far more common and correspondingly less dramatic than Kuhn supposes, and that perfectly ‘normal’ science experiences these changes also."

Furthermore, a theory is a collection of sentences that are taken to be true, in the semantical sense. So, in logic, a theory is a collection of sentences that are tautologies, possibly due to a set of axioms and closed under logical consequences, as I explain briefly elsewhere (link). In terms of science, a theory is a set of sentences taken to describe features of the entities posited by the theory, regardless if they are ontological or not. This is why we can have a theory of light like Frensel's which is entirely wrong--in the ontological sense--about the entity it is describing. Theories generally describe facts (or relations which need, also, not be ontological). Facts, here are taken to be observational truths in an important, empirical, sense. Thus, a theory that describes something is describing a fact of experience. Frensel's theory described light, which we do not need science at all to detail for us. This is the difference between what Sellars describes as the manifest versus the scientific image (link). In terms of philosophy, it is the difference between what is apparent empirically versus scientific realism that posits the truth of unobservables. The manifest image does not require science. I don't need to know anything scientifically to know that it rains, that I eat food, that I will die if I am shot in the head, or fall if I jump off a cliff. This is why your entire caricature of my objection was moot to down-right stupid. The theory is irrelevant to the truth of the facts of the matter.

To be clear, facts are facts. Facts do not require science for any ontological qualification. What is missing is the relation of facts to other facts (e.g., the causal connection between my jumping up, and my falling back down to the earth). These relations are unobservable. They require science to adequately explain them. Theories are underdetermined, also, but that is an entirely other matter I need not bring up here. What is important is that a theory can explain relations, do so adequately and have great predictive success, while positing entities that are entirely unreal (e.g., aether). There is no justification for why our current theories today might be ontologically correct. Is there ontological randomness because quantum mechanics utilizes it as an inherent property in the state of quantum entities? If we took your argument at face value, we'd have to immediately accept that truth for the only reason that "science says so" or "the mature science of quantum mechanics as we have developed today says so." That is completely untenable.

Now, to the point, what I said was specifically about theories and theory changes. I never made reference nor alluded to anything remotely like paradigms or other conceptions. I was talking about ontology and theories which you have intimately linked, without qualification, to make your point about this dichotomy between scientism and NOMA. The point is that scientism fails, and fails for significant reasons that you have shown you do not even recognize. I have not drawn out the argument, because such an argument will span several blogs of my own this summer, and comprise a number of articles I still have yet to read; I also am still going to blog about realism and scientific realism before I build into my current readings on structural realism.

If you want to make the argument that science or scientific theories state ontological truths, then by all means, I would love to see this argument, but you have not provided it. In fact, very few in academia, I believe, would even hold such a position (and I don't think anyone in the philosophy of science would take it seriously). The reason is simple: scientific theories posit entities, relational structures and semantical truths that are neither necessary for the facts, not sufficient for metaphysical acceptance. In fact, the best argument that is made is that we accept scientific theories tentatively for pragmatic reasons, ignorance. It is brought out by what Worrall calls the "no miracles" argument. Essentially, for the predictive success we've carried throughout the ages with our sciences, we must have gotten something right all along, and it would be a miracle for us to have gotten it significantly wrong. Structural realism, to some, tries to fix this problem where scientific realism fails to be accommodating (paper by French shows the "no miracle" argument to be unnecessary, and instead we face a problem of unique theory selection which is a big issue on the subject of structural realism, particularly on the semantics approach--French and Saatsi. 2006. Realism about Structure: The Semantic View and Nonlinguistic Representations. Philosophy of Science 73: 548-59.)
Posted 6/15/2009 2:19 AM by bryangoodrich - reply

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This is actually my favorite post of yours so far.
Normally I do think your writings are a little long, but you carry this one well.
However, I don't like characterizing the religion of the Egyptians and Romans as religion in the same sense Judaism, Islam, and Christianity.
For them I think it was more a science to the best of their knowledge. They weren't exactly warring to make people convert to believe in their gods, as I understand, they beleived worshiping their gods was necessary for success.

-Alexander the Zounderkite
Posted 6/15/2009 5:42 AM by online now FoliageDecay - reply

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@bryangoodrich - "Scientism is actually a rather easy to define notion (though, anyone can claim to stand on a gradient of it). Scientism clearly posits that the only means to true statements (especially ontologically) is through science, i.e., whatever science says is true, is the truth."


You have stated the strong form of scientism. There is a weak form that states that science may not be the only way to truth, but that it is the best way to truth, and, that if it contradicts any claim from any other discipline, science is to be preferred.


My position about the term "science", as I'm sure you are well aware, is that it is merely a rhetorical device and that it serves no other useful purpose in philosophy.


@pnrj - Your post could have been broken up into two parts. Serialization of long articles is common in journals. You have a clear and interesting style, so I didn't have any trouble finishing the post, which I couldn't say for all of Bryan's posts, though they are shorter. I think that presenting short paragraphs is less daunting, which you do. Nevertheless, be prepared to serialize.


You are dealing with a whole host of philosophical topics here, from scientism to methodological naturalism to (implicit) metaphysical naturalism to (implicit) historiography to demarcation issues. [I put on my teaching hat here.] You need to nail down one topic precisely. Dawkins and Provine aren't philosophers; they make a whole host of philosophical mistakes and relying on them is problematic since they are out of field (some might uncharitably say that they are in left field). Lewontin, I believe, has had some training in philosophy, so he would be a better candidate for reliance.


I believe that I have responded adequately to most of your secondary points previously, so I won't bother to do so again.


The main intuitive point about NOMA, it seems to me, is correct, even though I find philosophical problems with the concept because I don't accept any kind of philosophical reality for "science". Different disciplines have different methodologies and different domains, generally. Where the domains intersect, that is where there may be controversy. For instance, molecular genetics has a great deal of controversy with morphological cladism. Similarly, creationism has a controversy with common ancestry.


Gould et. al. have made a serious philosophical error in characterizing the controversy as between theology and science. The nature of the methods and arguments of creationism are heavily historical and philosophical, using a modernist historiography. The question of creation/common ancestry concerns the domain of the past. In studying the past, the methods of history are preferred over those of science, where history gives us access.


The methods of "science" asserting common ancestry are forensic or, where experimental, analogical.  "Science" gets the bulk of its prestige from the experimental side, where there are massive technological benefits.  Some people have asserted the prestige of science by leveraging the experimental side with hosts of technological proofs over to support the very speculative forensic side lacking technological proofs in order to support their theory of common descent. This is a very noxious type of epistemic conflation. Gould et. al. have failed to note the conflation.


Hence, while Gould et. al. have made some serious mistakes about the issues, their intuition about NOMA appears to be correct and useful.

Posted 6/15/2009 9:24 AM by soccerdadforlife - reply

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@soccerdadforlife - 

I'm aware of the weaker form. It still suffers the obvious mistake: science makes knowledge claims, not truth claims. It makes statements about facts and comprises theories to explain those facts so that we have knowledge to serve a pragmatic purpose. The knowledge need not be about ontological entities, since we can have a whole host of knowledge about things that do not exist (e.g., Santa Claus or God ;) ). The problem is that we are obfuscating what we mean by truth. If by truth we are meaning simply that the entities posited by our physical theories are real, then that is not truth. That is a statement about ontology. Truth is always going to be semantical in an important sense. Any other use is relating it to something else (like ontology). I go over this in my truth blog cited above. Therefore, to say science is the best or only means to truth is either (1) wrong or (2) saying it is the path to ontology. Scientism makes the latter case, and the former is much easier to refute. The latter is refuted by the fact the institution of science does not make ontological statements, and is discredited by the history of science--most apparent in theory changes (not paradigm shifts). More specifically, there is nothing ontological about scientific statements because they are not intended as ontological statements. They are epistemological statements. Science is our best means to knowledge--not truth or ontology. That is crucial, and so easily missed by some.
Posted 6/15/2009 9:50 AM by bryangoodrich - reply

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@bryangoodrich - I don't disagree with your views about the weaknesses of scientism, whether strong or weak, as I believe you realize.


Suppose that we assume the statement, "There is a god who created the physical world."  How then do we separate the ontologics (our assumptions about what exists) from the metaphysics (our assumptions about the fundamental nature of reality)?  How can we have relevant meaning (in the sense of the creation of the world) without the prior existence of the god?


Suppose that we assume the statement, "Uniformitarianism is true."  That statement implies that empirical reality has only a natural cause. Hence, it states that even if the supernatural exists, we cannot perceive any evidence of it with our senses.  The supernatural cannot act in the physical world, if UIT.  Miracles are assumed to be non-existent, a priori.  So, do you reject the strong form of uniformitarianism?


Uniformitarianism, it seems to me, relies upon 1. induction and 2. an assumption that we can make reliable inferences into the past about mechanisms which have produced the observed detritus of the past. (Of course, this is an old debate between us. I'm not sure how we can avoid treading over tired ground.)


The use of uniformitarianism in a forward-looking sense is uncontroversial since, if we assume causality and know the cause, we can reliably predict the effect. There is a one-to-one relationship between a prior cause and its effect. Reasoning backwards using induction, many causes can produce the same effect (i.e., there is a many-to-one relationship), so reasoning from effect to cause is problematic in a topological sense. We are limited by our lack of knowledge here; we intuitively believe that there actually only was a single cause that produced the effect; however, our lack of knowledge prevents us from knowing which mechanism actually produced the effect which we observe.

Posted 6/15/2009 10:57 AM by soccerdadforlife - reply

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@soccerdadforlife - 

You don't separate ontology from metaphysics. They are intimately related because the nature of reality is the very structure (domain) by which entities arise. It would be like trying to separate a function from its domain when all the properties of the function itself are determined in part by the domain it is defined on (I am not saying you cannot make a separation, but you have a limited scope of what you are abstracted at that point, and it is often for a very specific purpose, and still will involve falling back upon a structure to add the semantics back to the statement).

Uniformitarianism does not imply reality has only natural causes. It imposes the link between current natural processes acting approximately the same in the past as they do now. You're confusing uniformitarianism with metaphysical naturalism. The argument against miracles, however, does not need any a priori assumptions. There is no justifiable basis for asserting any miracle exists, save for some sort of private knowledge that you were the only one capable of witnessing the miracle. Miracles, by their very nature, do not contradict natural processes, since some can advance a miracle happening that is just improbable to a very high degree, e.g., physics says that if I push into a wall for long enough I could pass right through the solid object and materialize on the other side. It is very, very, very unlikely, but it is a possibility. If it happens, we'd surely say it was a miracle, but it was not unnatural. You have already assigned miracles as being unnatural, and have set up a straw man. In the case that it is unnatural, then there is no scientific basis for it. Why? Because science describes the natural world. You'd have to assert a metaphysics--most likely a dualist structure--that can account for the supernatural entities and the epistemology of it that determines how you can even have that knowledge which is independent of any scientific investigation. That is no trivial matter, and no one has as yet ever provided such an argument satisfactorily. But the only bias that exists is either from the standpoint you have, that these supernatural things exist at all, and are independent of the natural investigations and processes of our known reality, or someone who takes the scientism perspective and does say the only or best model of truth we have are from the sciences. Both are contentious.


Furthermore, no model of cause and effect need be as simplistic as you say. Overdetermination models can produce one-many or many-many relations. Non-linear dynamics, too, bring that into the game since we do not have precise measurements. Error always exists, and within that error those small changes can have monumental effects, creating a one-many relation. As for the past, there is nothing problematic with a many-one model. It by no means implies we can never have a one-one, nor that it is infinite-one or "a lot"-one. "many" in this context can be a small number of options, say five. Out of those five we can weigh them under various metrics. Depending upon the metric, and the argument for using that metric as being the most reasonable, plausible or representative, we can narrow our choice of the five down to one or two. Even with larger pools we can narrow this down or do so over time as our tools and methodologies improve. That is the nature of science, especially the historical sciences. And obviously, as I have pointed out to you numerous times, information loss is embedded in this analysis, since we can also identify our limitations and may even realize that we cannot get any less than a, say, five-one relation. But that is also by no means static, because future discoveries might overcome those restrictions, and we are in no position to say such possibilities are inaccessible, at least not without the evidence for that. You have criticized historical sciences as if any of this is problematic, or that it is somehow significant throughout. It isn't. It is the nature of inductive inferences. We may be confident, and utterly wrong. On the other hand, we might be relatively confident but have numerous extrapolations, possibly ranked in some manner. It just depends. Nothing is static, permanently restricted or homogeneous as you tend to make them out to be.
Posted 6/15/2009 8:29 PM by bryangoodrich - reply

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@bryangoodrich - Metaphysics and ontology are neglected areas of my philosophy education which I hope to study.


You are using that rhetorically-loaded and semantically-empty term "science". I shall attempt to refrain from using it.


"It imposes the link between current natural processes acting approximately the same in the past as they do now."  No, It imposes the exclusive condition that current natural processes are the only actors in the past; they were acting in the past as they do now.


P1. Geology necessarily relies upon uniformitarianism.


P2. Uniformitarianism is the assumption that current conditions were created only by natural processes acting in the past approximately as they do now.


C1. Geology necessarily relies upon the assumption that current conditions were created only by natural processes acting in the past approximately as they do now.


P3. Biblical miracles, such as biblical creation and the Noahic flood, are not natural processes.


C2. Geology necessarily excludes the proposition that biblical miracles created current conditions.


C2 is indistinguishable from metaphysical naturalism when applied to the domain of geology; metaphysical naturalism excludes biblical miracles a priori. QED


"Furthermore, no model of cause and effect need be as simplistic as you say."


Regarding causation, I was aiming at something that was experimentally repeatable; the cause may be complex and the effect may be complex--it doesn't matter for my purpose. Experimentation which produces repeatable results only allows for a 1:1 relationship. Historical "sciences" cannot guarantee which cause produced the observed effect, unlike experimentation with repeatability, given the assumption of causation. Historical sciences have a n:1 relationship of possible causes to an observed effect.


"Even with larger pools we can narrow this down or do so over time as our tools and methodologies improve."


Secondary hypotheses may be modified or replaced (e.g., the modern synthesis), but the central historical hypothesis of common ancestry is always untestable.

Posted 6/15/2009 11:09 PM by soccerdadforlife - reply

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@soccerdadforlife - 

First, common ancestry is testable in that it is a generalization of things we analyze today and are recognized in the past. It is a historical induction that is supported by the evidence by the very processes we can experiment with, make predictions upon, and by the historical evidence that lends itself to this evidence and these predictions. Of course we cannot grab "common ancestry" and experiment with it, because it is in the past. That does not mean we cannot induct with significant confidence that the processes involved in what is going on today lead us to the only plausible conclusion that we all come from a common ancestor.

Second, you are just wrong about uniformitarianism. It is present in what I said above in that we are using current experimental evidence to infer about processes in the past. There is no a priori exclusion of Biblical events. The exclusion is that they do not operate by the natural phenomena we see today; so, there is no inference to them operating in any way in the past. To be clear, a necessary condition for uniformitarianism is that the natural phenomena is observable in some aspect today (i.e., uniformitarianism about the past → phenomena present today). Since the Biblical phenomena lack any present substantiation as to their processes, there is nothing to infer about them in the past (i.e., no phenomena present today → no uniformitarianism about it in the past). There is just no evidence for those supposed miracles, and any such argument (which you have made in the past included) stems from presuming the truth of the miracle, and then trying to show it is present in modern phenomena. That is about as ass-backwards as you can get. You're inferring from your presumption about the past to modern phenomena. It is the converse of uniformitarianism, and is entirely opposed to the notion. It is also unscientific, begs the question, produces non-sequiturs and is poor reasoning. If you, or anyone else, were to make a justifiable case of these miracles, you would have to infer to it from what we see today (opps, that requires accepting some truth to uniformitarianism). Otherwise, all you have is the truth of presumption, which is an obvious circular reasoning, but don't try to act like such a thing would be a valid inference, because it lacks any inferential power, whatsoever. It is nothing more than butchering facts to fit a mold you already selected. If anyone uses those tactics, then they are in no position, ever, to question the methodologies of science since it is like taking a pile of shit and throwing it on the table saying it is better than gold.
Posted 6/16/2009 2:25 AM by bryangoodrich - reply

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@bryangoodrich - Using your logic, we don't see abiogenesis occurring today, so based on that we infer from uniformitarianism that it didn't occur in the past.  Same with the Big Bang, galactic formation, planetary formation, etc.  Your problem in defending uniformitarianism is that there may be events which aren't part of general processes and require unusual conditions or actors.  Uniformitarianism by definition requires the exclusion of any process which involves different conditions and actors than we see today.  This includes a Creator, the Genesis Flood, the Big Bang, galactogenesis, planetogenesis, abiogenesis, etc.  Even the formation of dinosaurs is excluded since we don't see them being formed today.


The biblical account of the phenomena of prehistory is historical in nature.  As the past is the domain of history, not of experimental science, the biblical account is to be preferred for answering phenomenological questions about prehistory over philosophic methods like cosmology and the forensic/philosophical methods used to support common ancestry.  Your philosophy of investigative categories is confused.


Do we see evidence of intelligent design?  Looking at the complexity of the cell, the development of vertebrates from fertilization to adulthood, the eye, the knee, the brain, etc. I think that the answer must be "Yes."  Belief otherwise requires acceptance of the Free Lunch Hypothesis--that you can get something from nothing.

Posted 6/25/2009 11:50 PM by soccerdadforlife - reply

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@soccerdadforlife - 

You're missing the justification for that inference about design. I see order in the cells and in structures of our universe and their relations. That does not appear to me at all evidence of some godly design.

Furthermore, uniformitarianism does not preclude historical events that do not happen today. It only infers that historical events happen by the same natural processes we observe today. There is nothing fundamentally or characteristically different about abiogenesis hypotheses that are on the table. There is nothing fundamentally or characteristically different about the Big Bang. If these type of events were different in an important sense, we wouldn't be able to explain them given present experimental science. We do explain the Big Bang, up to fractions of a second, by modern physics. We explain abiogenesis given our current comprehension of biochemistry. The better our understanding of theses sciences today, the better we can grasp the possible events of the past, and explain them with better accuracy. This is how I have said before that historical sciences narrow the possibilities, and part of that is by contemporary advancements in the field to get a clearer picture of our historical extrapolations. There is nothing inconsistent in what I have said, nor anything that would signal these these natural phenomena not being possible due to their lack of observation today. My point was no where near that superficial. Read it again.

There is no phenomena today that lends itself to support the idea that a Creator or a Great Flood can or has occurred. Their existence tends to fly in the face of modern accounts of physical science. This is not an a priori rejection. Uniformitarianism simply does not present itself to suppose those phenomena are possible given modern accounts of physical sciences. If any such claim were made, it can only come from ignorance. Unless we are going to say an argument from ignorance is a justifiable argument, then we are left with an unsatisfying picture that a Creator or Great Flood are not justifiable given modern science to date. On the other hand, evolution explains how dinosaurs, among other things, originate. So, again, you seem to be in the wrong about what consequences follow from uniformitarianism.
Posted 6/26/2009 12:06 AM by bryangoodrich - reply

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@bryangoodrich - You are changing the definition of Uniformitarianism midstream from "processes observed occurring today" to "processes inferred from our understanding of chemistry and physics". We don't see the Big Bang or abiogenesis occurring today, so uniformitarianism excludes them.  We see design occurring today, so perhaps Uniformitarianism includes design.


Essentially, you are just rehashing Hume's argument against Miracles, though you are not as consistent as he with your definitions.

Posted 6/26/2009 12:18 AM by soccerdadforlife - reply

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@soccerdadforlife - 

I do not see where I have been inconsistent with my definitions. I have said,

[Uniformitarianism] imposes the link between current natural processes acting approximately the same in the past as they do now.

and

It is present in what I said above in that we are using current experimental evidence to infer about processes in the past.

and

[Uniformitarianism] ... infers that historical events happen by the same natural processes we observe today.

If you are going to quote me or paraphrase me, then do it right. Your quotes are no where in what I said. What I did say was that uniformitarianism relates current events to historical events by inferring that historical events happen by the same natural processes we observe today. Thus, the processes of the past ought to be approximately as we observe them today. We use current experimental evidence to comprehend our current observed processes. We use these to infer about processes in the past. There is nothing inconsistent in any of what I just said, and it is exactly as I have already said in the quotes above. A simple test reveals the truth in what I say: any process inferred about in the past can happen to day. This is the imposed "link between current natural processes acting approximately the same in the past as they do now." There is nothing precluding abiogenesis, the evolution of dinosaurs or another Big Bang. That does not mean they will just spontaneously happen. If the sufficient conditions that brought them about were present again, then they can happen again. This is the primary consequence of uniformitarianism, i.e., it establishes what counts as causal (sufficient) conditions for some natural phenomena, regardless of the time the event happened. We make these inferences based upon our current comprehension of the natural sciences, and we can infer that causal events can happen such that dinosaurs evolved or abiogenesis probably occurred, based on what we know today about the natural sciences. We do not need to observe those events today because the sufficient conditions for their happening are not present. It would be asinine to say uniformitarianism cannot work because we do not see the historical events today. We don't have to. Our understanding of these physical relationships given the physical sciences admit of no time-dependence. Therefore, if the conditions are sufficient for some physical event to imply another, given our understanding of these physical entities proposed, then we can expect the consequent to happen given the antecedent conditions, regardless if this happens today, tomorrow or centuries in the past. Thus, we can use current understanding of biochemistry to comprehend how abiogenesis could have happened in the past, and given data that helps us narrow down the (sufficient) conditions, we can infer about what events probably did happen in the past. That is nothing new, and doesn't matter if it is looking into the past or extrapolating into the future. The inductive inference doesn't care about the direction of time. If you give up uniformitarianism, you give up how to conduct modern science, including direct observation experimental sciences because there is always a time differential factor to consider. The only difference is that the differential in time is different depending on the inference, but that is not a difference in kind, only degree.
Posted 6/26/2009 1:05 AM by bryangoodrich - reply

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All right, guys; take this discussion somewhere else. You're using up comment space on my blog.
Posted 6/26/2009 2:48 AM by pnrj Xanga True Member - reply

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@soccerdadforlife - 



By the way, it is clearly religion ("creatio ex nihilo," anyone?), not science, that supports the Free Lunch Hypothesis. You say that God just magically makes things appear out of nothing, and you attack us for claiming "free lunch"?

Science delivers a clear, coherent, and well-supported explanation of how current lifeforms evolved from previous lifeforms, entirely due to well-understood natural processes; true, it cannot account for the origin of the universe itself, but we've been trying to do that for thousands of years with no progress, and increasingly philosophers are becoming convinced that there is something wrong with the question.
Posted 6/26/2009 3:50 AM by pnrj Xanga True Member - reply

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When there is God, there is no free lunch.  With God, you have a beginning where there is a Creator with unlimited resources, unlimited power, and unlimited knowledge.


Comon ancestry pseudo-science delivers a confused, incoherent, and anomaly-rich speculation about common ancestry.


Science, real science, provides technological goods--medical advances, electronics, improved crop yields, etc.

Posted 6/26/2009 8:04 AM by soccerdadforlife - reply

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@pnrj - Okee dokee


@bryangoodrich - How about if I post about this on my blog?

Posted 6/26/2009 8:14 AM by soccerdadforlife - reply

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@soccerdadforlife - 

Feel free.
Posted 6/26/2009 11:16 AM by bryangoodrich - reply


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